The 17th at Pebble Beach, Circa 1929

A nice reminder of how Pebble Beach's 17th looked after Chandler Egan's 1928 renovation and before years of flying bunker sand reduced the size of the green:

The 17th at Pebble Beach, circa 1929 (click on image to enlarge)

Update on Wednesday, February 7, 2007 at 10:50 PM by Geoff

P.S. - the yacht in the background belonged to Howard Hughes.

Comments

[Hawkeye]

I've always thought that Pebble's 17th is actually a pretty bad golf hole when played from the tips, since the green is too shallow to hold a shot that long. Geoff, do I interpret this post correctly if I read that you are of the same opinion?

[AHW]

Hawkeye, Nicklaus held the green fine in ´72! Sure, he had to hit the flagstick to do it, but anyway!

[Smolmania]

Hawk,
The green will hold, just not close to certain pin positions. Does that make it a bad hole? I think not. Would love to win the Mega M tonite and go back soon.

[Hawkeye]

I guess you're right, Smols. I've just never been a fan of "forced carry"-Par 3's with shallow greens, especially not at that length. At 170, it would be great. At 220, well...

[jneu]

The great hidden hazard at 17 -- perhaps the ultimate example of being "hidden in plain sight" -- is the sun. When it's out, and glaring off the water, it's tough to see the green and nearly impossible to come through your shot without flinching. A most unusual kind of "blind" hole!

[Four-putt]

You can hold flags placed anywhere on the 17th green if the wind is in your face.

You can land it short and roll it onto the front half of the putting surface -- downwind.

However, to get close to flags on the back half with the wind at your back is one of the greatest tests in golf.

4p

[Adam C.]

The hole, with it's smaller surface, is one that actually has been made easier for most golfers because of technology in I&B. Especilly if played at 220, which it rarely is.

As intimated already by someone who obviously knows above, the wind and humidty levels are key factors.

[RGT]

Would a pin placed just behind the road hole bunker at St. Andrews make it a bad hole because a player can't hold a shot on that line?

[Hawkeye]

No, because you have the option to dare a line over the "o" in "hotel" instead of in "course" off the tee and give yourself an angle of approach which enables you to get to the pin with a draw that utilizes the natural slope in the green. Not something I would recommend to anyone, but the choice is there. "Angle of approach" is not available on a Par 3. But I've already said Mea Culpa, I'm the one with the problem of not being able to hit and hold a shallow green from 220!

[MAC]

Good point, RGT the good (ie: smart) player plays away from sucker pins and attacks when appropriate. I think thats why Pinehurst #2 sets up so well for an Open - sometimes the best shot is played to 20 feet right or left of the hole, especially when firm greens prevail

[NRH]

Thanks for the new wallpaper Geoff...great pic.

[Smolmania]

Hawk,
I think everybody's who has posted in response to your point would agree that it's a very hard shot to try and hit it close to the pin on 17, but that fact doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad -- or more importantly, a poorly designed -- golf hole. Yeah, if you can hit a long iron like Jack could back in the 70s, or a mid-iron like Tiger can today, the difficulty factor is lessened.
But, didn't Billy Casper lay up on one of the par-3s at Winged Foot when he won our Open there? He felt that the odds of making par on that obviously difficult hole were better by laying up and chipping than in hitting a long club to the green itself. Seems to me that 17 at Pebble could create the same type of option if one were so inclined.
Maybe Geoff could have Peter Uebberoth (sp?) and his ownership group let the regulars on this site come out and play 17 to find out?

[RGT]

Ben Hogan implemented the same approach strategy as Billy Casper with Oakland Hills 9th hole. It's a long par 3 with a huge green but severely sloped back to front, he NEVER wanted to be above the hole. Hogan would also lay up his second shot on the par 4 11th at Augusta, I guess one could say he took double bogey out of the equation completely.

As for 17 at Pebble Beach, while true it's a shallow green it almost always plays into a heavy sea level breeze. And while there is little pitch from back to front on the right hand part of the green there is sufficient pitch from back to front on the left hand side. And when all else fails, you still have the choice of hitting a 19 degree hybrid 210 yards with the trajectory of an 8 iron.

[Hawkeye]

Smols, yeah, Casper did that on the 3rd at Winged Foot in ´59 - chipped up and got down for par all four days. But the shot left from short of that green is relatively easy, as is the shot from the right of Augusta's 11th. Is there a comparable "bail-out position" on Pebble's 17th? I would think the eventual pitch, given the hourglass-shaped green with the hump in the middle, would discourage that safe play short and right when the pin is back left. That shot is more like what you're left with after taking the straight route at Riviera's 10th but not quite getting there - extremely difficult, and a path best avoided.

[Tim]

Hawkeye, didn't you just read Jeff's piece on urethane covers and square grooves? If you can't layup in front on the right to get the appropiate angle and a flop in not in your skill set, you can always put it in the left bunker. I don't see why not being able to get close to all pin placements makes this a "bad design". I'm sorry, but where is it written that you should be able to have a birdie putt on every hole at every pin position. I thought Par was supposed to be the standard of excellent play.
What I would like to see done (because the hole is sooo flat tee to green) is to remove the sand induced berms (like the photo shows), so that you could actually see the bunkers behind the green.
Or as they did at a replica course in Chicago (near O'Hare) is elevate the tees. (Although there they made the green a bit larger so there is more room). I think the main problem you have w/the left-front position is the front-to-rear slope coming off that berm doesn't allow for a shot at or short of the pin to hold, so don't try, just play past and putt back. Hell, it's just a 2,000 sf "tee-sized green" that your hitting to.