Improved Lie?

Thanks to reader Aleid for pointing out that the replay of Richie Ramsay's incident during Saturday's Wales Open is now posted. 

Update on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 at 09:59 AM by Geoff

Reader Manny wrote in to point out that they were playing lift, clean and place, so for those of you who subscribe to that as a form of cheating, then perhaps your take on Ramsay might be more lenient.

Comments

[DavidC]

I can't say he improved his lie because on wet fairways he could be creating a worse lie. Either way, not a very bright guy.

[golfboy]

I've never seen the actual text of the "lift clean place" rule anywhere, (and I'm pretty sure it's not in the Rules of Golf), so I haven't the slightest idea whether he was breaking the "rule" or not.

As the whole defense of Perry relied on "intent" however - It seems the whole "lift clean place" concept was created to allow players to INTENTIONALLY improve their lie - hmmm, so he was trying to improve his improved lie?

it's called a slippery slope for a reason...

And yes, I am one of the proud and few who do actually refer to the "rule" as "lift, clean and cheat!"

[Erik J. Barzeski]

On one hand, I might suggest he was just trying to see if there was casual water around.

On the other hand, uhh... what gives?

[golfman]

golfboy,

See Appendix I; Part B; Section 4c.

[KS]

I agree with Erik...it looks to me like he was checking for casual water. Now whether that is within the rules or not, that I don't know. If that does break a rule, it appears to me to be out of ignorance rather than out of a desire to cheat.

[Jeremy]

Why the heck did he need to sleep on it to determine if he really was checking for casual water? Either he was, and he is comfortable stating it immediately, or he was instead trying to improve his lie and he needed a night to think about whether he could live with that action.

[Tighthead]

It does look like he was checking for casual water, but why not put the ball in play and then see if there is water there? You need to drop first to get relief.

[golfboy]

hey golfman, thanks, is that section new in 2008-09, or have I just not peeked back there in years?

still think we are in slippery-slope land - because when placing under Rule 20 it's " in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie" - and, of course, the point of "l,c &p" is to improve the lie, so you're necessarily not going to put it in the lie most similar, you're going to find a better one.

agree with the point about losing sleep if you've done nothing wrong, however...

[The O]

Tighthead has a reasonable comment about dropping first, and then getting relief, but everytime these guys play Lift, Clean and Place, they massage every ounce of advantage out of it. Does the ball fly better with the seem a certain way? Put it that way. is there a marginally flatter lie right there? Etc.

Frankly, when I heard about this, I was aghast. But after realizing via video that it was in a lift, clean and place situation, I honestly don't care. Yes, cheating is bad, but lift, clean and place isn't really golf.

[Tighthead]

I hope there is no video of me slipping green lifesavers under my ball in lcp events (only for fairway wood shots).

[golfman]

>>
hey golfman, thanks, is that section new in 2008-09, or have I just not peeked back there in years?
>>

At least since 2000.

>>
still think we are in slippery-slope land - because when placing under Rule 20 it's " in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie" - and, of course, the point of "l,c &p" is to improve the lie, so you're necessarily not going to put it in the lie most similar, you're going to find a better one.
>>

Q. What does Rule 20-3b (from which you quoted) have to do with the LC&P Local Rule?
A. Nothing.

[Mitch Martin]

If RR had only seen this:

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1954/540220.pdf

[golfboy]

Q. What does Rule 20-3b (from which you quoted) have to do with the LC&P Local Rule?
A. Nothing.


uncle

time for a refresher rules seminar, obviously

[titleist38]

What about the caddie standing about 4 feet away watching this going on - unbelievable!

[al p]

MItch
that ruling book was very cool!
Simple and easy to understand.

[Spence]

I see this: I guy that made a footprint and then placed the ball just past the 'toe' of the footprint to elevate it. As long as your stance is in casual water, your ball is in casual water...also, you are not allowed to 'stomp' or place excess pressure down in determining if you are in casual water or not.

Cheater, and now he will live with it.

Spence

[Taylor]

As the Perry video was ambiguous, particularly with regard to "intent", this is not. Ramsay is clearly building a tee for himself. LCP is an absolute joke.

[Ky Laffoon's Ghost]

Yeah, this looks bad. My son (at about age 11) once did the same thing in the fairway, having seen me do it on the tee. We have had a nice ongoing conservation about the rules since then.

But the incident is not as bad as "lift, clean, and cheat" in the first place. Just once I would like to see a "professional" use a wedge (instead of a 3-wood, for example) on a ball with a big clump of mud on it rather than just mark it, clean it, and place it back in a perfect lie so they can go for the green. Poor little things.

[thusgone]

while i'm surprised that none of the earlier stories i read mentioned the fact that they were playing lcp, ii agree with jeremy and spence. plus, i always thought the casual water rule gave you a drop if your feet were in it while in your stance. i'm not sure i understand the logic of stomping around the ball in search of casual water.

finally, does anyone else read the defenses of ramsay as pretty much saying "he's not very smart, and so couldn't have intended to gain an advantage?"

i also like the

[Farmingdale]

Right or wrong, for years lots of players have been using the old foot test to determine casual water, or not.

Like the Kenny Perry video I think it's real tough to tell the true proximity of the ball to where he was conducting the foot test.

Seems as though Richie has a bit of a checkered history but in this instance I'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt. But clearly he's going to be under the microscope going forward, shouldn't be a problem if he handles things properly.

[Sean Arble]

To determine the place to drop doesn't one need to test the area by standing still (this is what I was taught many moons ago)? If water comes up over the soul area of the shoe its not the place to drop. Personally, I think it looks very bad, however, I don't really know the technicalities of the rules in this situation. I also thought he was supposed to drop then under the l,c &p mark and replace his ball. Ramsey seems to be placing a ball where there is no marker.

What is the correct procedure?

[WP]

To say he was building a lie is complete garbage. He's got a camera 10 feet behind him- no one would intentionally cheat while being filmed. He was checking for casual water. Any mistake he made was an honest one.