The Stack And Tilt Wars: "I'm not going to say the person's name, whoever Tiger is working with, you know, he's got Andy and Mike's DVD, his book, and he always calls them asking questions."

Charlie Wi, following Friday's round at Cog Hill, was asked about Stack and Tilt's status on the PGA Tour.

And I know that you're probably referring to Aaron Baddeley and Mike Weir, but Aaron Baddeley was the worst ball striker on the PGA TOUR before -- well, you should laugh because it's a fact. It's a stat that we -- and Andy and Mike, to their credit, took him -- he won three times with Andy and Mike, and also took him to inside top 20 in the world. And if that's not good enough for Aaron, well, it is what it is.

And also Mike Weir, he was also one of the worst ball strikers on TOUR, and it took him to -- he won two times with Andy and Mike and make $6 million in two seasons with Andy and Mike, and he thought that wasn't good enough. If you look at -- they're not here this week, so maybe they should be working with Andy and Mike.

And they're good friends of mine, too.

Andy and Mike or Aaron and Mike? Uh, probably the first two.

Q. I might be reading too much into it, but just the way you introduced them early in the press conference, you're working with them and they're the Stack & Tilt guys, do you feel they've been under an unnecessary attack lately?

CHARLIE WI: Well, yeah. All the players know and all the caddies know who all the best teachers are out here. They're really quiet. They don't go around looking for press or anything. But I think that because it is different, other teachers have a tendency to bash them. Maybe they might be one generation ahead of them, but in the end they're not teaching something that is new. They're teaching geometry, and geometry works for everybody. If you're 200 pounds, if you're 6'3", 5'5", everybody, geometry is the same with everybody.

You know, if you guys had a chance to sit down with them and talk to them about golf, you know, you would see that they know what they're talking about, and they have a huge following. I'm not going to say the person's name, whoever Tiger is working with, you know, he's got Andy and Mike's DVD, his book, and he always calls them asking questions. They know what -- they definitely know what they're talking about.

 You just had to bring Tiger and what's his name Sean Foley into this, didn't you?

Q. I don't remember it. Do you take it personally, I guess, because you're still working with Andy and Mike, and they seem to be criticized in various publications, and the guy that Tiger is working with is getting a lot of attention?

CHARLIE WI: Yeah, and I think that there's an article coming out in Golf Digest, and there was a big problem with Andy and Mike and the person that's working with Tiger because the pictures that are in the Golf Digest is pretty much straight out of their golf book that they have released.

Andy approached him and said, hey, I don't think it's fair that you're using our material. But he goes, well, you know, they asked me a question and said who do you look up to as teachers, and he said that my first teacher is Andy and Mike, the Stack & Tilt guys, so we'll see when the publication comes out if he did say that or not.

The Battle Of The Swing Instructors. It would be so much more fun than Big Break Daufuskie Island.

Comments

[D.]

Good read on the topic from a Golfing Machine teacher:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13212-blog-stack-tilt-pattern-brian-manzella.html

[M]

Wi is 164th in total driving and 99th in gir, s&t are happy with those stats?

Wi is a very good scrambler/putter, which s&t has nothing to do with?

Weir won once (the "prestigious" Frys.com, but a win is a win) with s&t. 7 times, including a major, a wgc, a tour championship, and twice at Riviera without s&t.

I like people speaking their mind, but maybe get some things straight first.

[Used to be Former S&T Convert]

Always amazes me how many people passionately bash two guys that have earned the respect of several tour pros (nobody can argue that there are several tour players that respect Plummer and Bennett).

The bashers reek of fear, as if they have something to lose if S&T works for some people. There are so many ways to move a ball downfield, why cannot S&T be one of them?

[themerk]

for those who think stack and right err stack and tilt works please name 3 guys who have won on the PGA tour with it. The pros can play it however there is so much timing involved that us mere mortals would typcially loose the timing and then everything goes right. Whether Charlie Wi is playing the stack and tilt or had a conventional swing his biggest problem is that in big pressure situations he has the tendency to spit the bit. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens on Sunday.

[Dana]

First off that Charlie is a good striker of the ball, and a very good putter. your looking at the top 100 in the world. He is not the longest off the tee. But he is also not very big. Look up Troy Matteson and JJ. They are power hitters and Troy ranks #1 in Gir.

Wier came first to stack and tilt because he had a neck issue, that was fixed after his change. Now he has left the Swing, how is he doing now??? Oh yea looking for another new coach, just went to David leadbetter. Thats a good one. Why not go back and break into the top 40 again?

S&T won twice this year and at Turning stone went 1st a 2nd and a thrid. Bill Lunde won. Good luck on that.
I think that 9 tour wins in three years...

[Dana]

The merk
What do you mean timing. How do you know this? I guess your just saying this to say it. jezee bunch of experts. No way and no how would you hit a ball right unless you came out of it and the left shoulder came too far away for the ball..

If the the face is square to the path, how would it take more timing? You dont flip at it or have a roll like some players do?

I hit the ball fine with it. Staright or Draw. I dont even hit balls that much. Thats the point dont have too.

So yea can't name 3 players who won under the system but I can name 9 !!!!!!!

[Dana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzeSKss6ITc&feature=player_embedded#at=79

Yea he is long off the tee... and #1 in Gir for 2010

[Tourology]

Has S&T produced any Tour players? Grant it, the swing is 'young', but it should be noted that the guys using it were already professional golfers. There's a big fine line between professional golfers and the rest. I am of the mind that anyone who is good enough to be on Tour can try any swing. Tiger has used three different swings, as mentioned, Mike Weir won twice at Riviera and a Masters without S&T, then won with S&T. You could go on and on and on with such examples. You could watch a Tour player on the range, tell him to swing this way or that way, and he'd still hit it flush, good enough to get him around the course. None of these Tour players earned their PGA Tour Cards because of a particular swing method. I would even say that the Majority of them don't know what the heck a P3 or P5 or this or that is. They just know how to play golf. They have great short games. They're just way better than the average golfer, much better than the scratch golfer at your local club, because they have it between the ears, too.

S&T may have 20 or so Tour players, but it is my observation that those players did not grow up using S&T. That is, they are talented enough to use any many swings. They got on Tour with a non-S&T swing. Not to dis S&T, but it will be interesting to see in the future how many Tour players the swing produces, golfers who started playing the game using S&T -- beginners, golfers who never learned how to hit a pitch shot prior to learning S&T. Only time will tell.

[Ya Yas]

I don't know anything about Brian Manz., but that was a pretty good read from above. I like his approach. Most of life is gray area, as is golf. Thinking in absolutes doesn't make much sense. There will always be more than one way to skin a cat.

[Buffett]

See http://smashgolf.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/tigers-goin-stack-wow/#more-2181

[Buffett]

See also http://smashgolf.wordpress.com/2010/08/15/tiger-woods-stack-tilt/#more-2143

[Dana]

there a re few guys comming up that are born using Stack and Tilt. One junior who now is in Aisa was #1 and #2 as a junior next to jamie Lovemark was a Stack and tilter in 05-07. However he should had finished school before going as a pro

[John]

Dana- arent you a pro who teaches S&T e.g. to Anna Rawson? How does it work out for her?

[dbh]

What a wacko press conference. Charlie comes off like the Manchurian Candidate, spouting S&T factoids..
Is S&T a swing discipline or a cult? :)

[themerk]

I gues there is really 2 arguements here. One is the philosophy of the s&t golf swing and the second is Charlie Wi.

First, I am sure Ady and Mike are smart instructors even if they did get most of the idea for the swing from Mac O'Grady. The typical miss for an amatuer is right and while to concept of staying on top of the ball is a good one most cant complete the pull side of the swing and thus block it. I agree that a small move off the ball is good bt there must be some move. That being said if you can win 14 majors with the stack and tilt have at it but so far I am ot sure anyone has one a major and the wins on tour are minimal.

Second, Charlie WI. Here are the stats.
Driving Accuracy - 63% 98th on tour
GIR% - 67% 99th on tour
While his puting is good his putting from inside 5' is 121st. Mayb he should talk to Dave Stockton and stop worrying about his full swing and whle he is at it he should may give Dr, Gio a call because yet again on a Sunday he spit the bit with a chance to win.

[themerk]

btw sorry for the typos. I am watching football and golf and trying to type and use the remote.

[Dana]

That does not fit the model for a right shot, most pull cut balls. Stack player hit straight or draws.

Yes I teach Anna, her balls striking is good. Right now its just mental.

[JPB]

One cannot reasonably evaluate golf "methodology" without bearing a few things in mind:

1. The performance of one or two - or even a handful - of players constitutes a very small sample, a sample well short of what would be required for a reliable and valid evaluation.

2. If we _are_ going to study a handful of players, at least we should focus not on their absolute performance level (viz., the comment that Wi is "a terrible ball striker"), but the difference in their performance with and without the methodology.

All of that said, the statistical difference in ball striking between the best and worst PGA Tour players is pretty small. They are phenomenally good already; in such a skewed population, it's probably impossible to really see any meaningful differences between different methodologies. I know nobody believes that statement, but I think if you really could conduct an experiment with true scientific rigor, you'd find that any method is fine for a tour pro.

A better measure of the validity of S&T or any other method would be to study recreational golfers.

[dan]

FWIW, i am about a 10 hcp. I wouldn't call myself a S&T'er but i experimented and it radically helped me. I would guess for a couple reasons:

- most average golfers get their weight 'stuck' on their right side.
- straightening your left knee on the down swing instead of 'sliding' into your left side promotes a steeper swing plane that's much more acurate for short irons/wedges.

So i don't think its the best swing in the world for the long clubs, but keeping your weight 'over' the ball is a huge help for the short ones.

[Taffy]

All I know is, if Anna Rawson wanted me to teach her s and t I would!

[Mark]

Well, on the bright side, Tiger now has two weeks to extend his Trim Hunt.

[Dana]

Just FYI
Grant Waite ? Thats about as good as it gets to the model IMOP

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If you think S&T doesn't work for long clubs, you don't understand it. If you think S&T costs you distance, you don't understand it ("distance" is fundamental #2!) If you think S&T is a "steep" swing, you don't understand it. If you think it's a reverse pivot, you _really_ don't understand it. :-)

It's a pattern, and it's nowhere near as "radical" as people seem to think it is. Yes, Mike and Andy owe a lot to Mac O'Grady, which is why they thank him and give him credit when possible. You can't go ten minutes discussing certain parts of the golf swing without them mentioning Mac.

100% of the PGA Tour players do, say, 75% of the swing already. Some do more.

[JPB]

Erik, in another thread you mentioned giving lessons. Have you gotten a PGA card or otherwise begun working in golf instruction?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Yep. Something you could ask me via email, no?