If Vijay Found Guilty Of The Violation He Admitted To, He'll Be Unable To Play Champions Tour

Rex Hoggard answers one question many have had considering that the Champions Tour doesn't test for PEDs and Vijay Singh turns 50 in June on February 22.

Comments

[Ghillie]

Vijay turns 50 in days, not in June.

There appear to be different rules for everyone in this racket.

[Steve Elling]

Singh turns 50 in exactly 14 days.

Banishing him to the senior circuit seems like a fair punishment, actually.

[JSP]

If by some stroke he is actually banned can he still play the Masters? PGA Tour doesnt run it so technically he could, right?

[DTF]

Feb. 22 is Vijay's birthday....

I find that Golf Channel headline to be misleading, to me it infers he'll never be able to play the Senior Tour.

All the sensationalism associated with this situation just blows me away -- on the Sky Sports telecast last week Mark Roe was talking in terms of this being "the end of his career", that's just Moron TV.

KLG, if I buy a few bottles of this SWATS potion and mail it down can you test it and see if there's really any of this IGF-1 in it? I'm of the opinion it's snake oil, a scam, nothing but some flavored water with maybe a few vitamins or something else innocuous in it.

Why haven't any reporters really looked hard at the product? Based on a simple google search the market seems to be awash in *deer spray*....how many antlers to a spray bottle? Where do all these antlers come from? Is there any sort of quality control process involved with the production of *deer spray*? Has any self respecting news organization taken time to buy some deer antler and have it tested?

Assuming this is a scam, which I think is a high likelihood, if you were a reporter wouldn't you want to be the one going the other way, maybe checking this out? You know, maybe be the guy that said hey here's the proof, this is complete BS?

Manti didn't have a girlfriend and every single reputable news organization reported about her, reported her death, reported where she went to school, etc...not a single one checked it out.

Apparently New Zealand is a main producer of this deer velvet. There is a 7.5 minute promotional video on youtube about the subject, looks to have been posted by industry lobby down there, the antler removal process is pretty gross.

I think it's a scam -- colored water.

Hell, I might just be wrong....but this whole thing just does not add up.

If any real reporters want to dig in here's a place to start:

Deer Industry New Zealand
PO Box 10 702
Wellington 6143, New Zealand
email: info@deernz.org
www.deernz.org
www.velvet.org.nz


Maybe they can provide some studies or something?

[NRH]

Thank you DTF - my sentiments exactly on the media

[DTF]

velvet (dot) org (dot) nz/Research/tabid/46/Default (dot) aspx

On the page linked there they go on and on about who is researching deer velvet, where, for how long -- absolutely zero on conclusions.

There is this: "In general, the research tends to support that deer velvet’s effects on the human body are restorative, strengthening and protective. The findings of research on velvet's purported supportive effects on growth and its support for haematinic and anti-ageing are of particular interest."

Could they possibly be more vague?

I've emailed and asked where one might access the research, will advise as to what I hear ;0)

People, this is flavored water. There is no penalty for spraying flavored water in your mouth regardless of whatever fancy label might have been put on the bottle!

[DTF]

This sentence should read --> "Has any self respecting news organization taken time to buy some deer antler *spray* and have it tested?" (left out *spray*)

Heck even I can identify a deer antler from 20 yards ;0)

[Ghillie]

Reporters (such as are left) may be falling down on the job compared to the sort of work they used to do when they were beat reporters, but it is surely incumbent upon the PGA Tour to conduct some sort of serious, credible, verifiable and reportable tests on this product before ruling on a player's situation for using it.

[D. maculata]

I'm not so sure, DTF. About the no penalty part, that is. Timmy will probably give him pass but will ask him to open his wallet. Remember, in the realm of lawyers *intent* is a powerful word. Whether you succeed or not. And we know PVB has lots of folks with Esq. attached to their name.

[Bobby D]

"Banishing him to the senior circuit seems like a fair punishment, "

Really? Fair to who? You? Easy to pick on a guy who is hated by the press.

[grr]

Title is misleading...

Should it not read: If Vijay Found Guilty Of The Violation He Admitted To, He'll Be Unable To Play Champions Tour until he has served that suspension" ?

Golf Channel article says: " .... he would not be eligible to play the over-50 circuit until he has served that suspension."

[Seán O'Nuallain]

@DTF - "Where do all these antlers come from?"

Just after deer season last year my family and I went to eat at a restaurant near a local mall. There was a guy in the mall parking lot with a big old Ram 3500 overflowing with horns and a half-sheet of plywood propped up against the truck with "We buy deer antlers" painted on it. Self, says I, who in the hell would go around buying antlers in mass quantities?

So for me this whole Vijay thing has tied up and put a bow on one of the unresolved questions in my life. That's always nice.

[KLG]

Del: Busy today, but a test for IGF-1 in this concoction would be very simple. All you need is an antibody and an ELISA plate reader, available in any clinical lab. If a spray bottle contained more than a trace of IGF-1 I would be surprised. Did some quick research, and a person of Vijay's size would have about 600 micrograms in his entire circulation. There is no way this stuff can get where it needs to be when administered as a "spray." But let's assume that 1% can "seep through." A back-of-the-envelope calculation would require about 60 milligrams per dose +/- a factor of 5-10. That is a very small amount of anything we use day to day, but it is a very large amount of a peptide hormone. To get the quantities required out of deer antlers would require, how should I put it, heroic efforts.

As far as intent goes, the question is not that he intended to break the rule. It's whether he intended to use the "Spray," which is on the banned list. I looked. There is an entire internet underground devoted to this stuff. P.T. Barnum was "more" right than he ever could have imagined.

[Rob]

I'd be checking all those pros from China where this stuff is pretty standard fare.

Never mind the deer antlers. Think about all those bear galbladders and tiger penises.

I think they are even on the appy menu at TGIF's in Shanghai ...

[Roger]

KLG --

PT Barnum, yes, but we must also not forget HL Mencken's immortal words:

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

[RLL]

Del's point about what passes for "reporting" is well taken. More often than not, "the news" these days is just an elaborate game of what children used to call telephone tag, with one "reporter" passing along what s/he's heard from another and preceding it by the phrase, "many are saying..."

And we've gotten more actual information from KLG's post here than I'ver heard to date anywhere else.

[KLG]

Ah, Mencken. I used to visit the Mencken Room in the Enoch Pratt Free Library when it was opened once a year. We need an H.L. Mencken today, but it is unclear whether anyone can overcome Tomlin's Law: No matter how cynical I get, it is impossible to keep up.

[Bobby D]

I have specific knowledge of the "horn business" as we call it out here in the mountain West. This all started in Asia where ground-up elk and deer antler (among other "stuff" as mentioned by poster Rob above) has been widely used in powder form as an elixir/cure-all/aphrodisiac, etc. Here is the chain of events:
1. Deer and elk shed their antlers in the late winter...they "drop" them with a clean break at the base of their skull and grow new antlers each year. This happens in areas where they congregate in winter, called "yard" areas or winter range.
2. Local horn hunters roam the hills picking up shed antlers.
3. Horn hunters sell the antlers to buyers...right now fresh (brown) elk antlers are going for $9 per lb. Deer antlers are less money.
4. The horn buyer amasses a large stash of antlers then contacts the Asian buyer and they negotiate a price. Some years ago the price was $30-$40 per pound...it fluxuates due to popularity.
5. The horns are shipped or trucked to the West Coast where the Asian buyer arranges shipment to Korea, China, Japan, etc.
6. The horns are ground up into powder and re-sold to companies like SWAT, Health Food Stores, etc.

Every year the Boy Scouts are allowed on to the Elk Refuge in Jackson Hole, WY and allowed to pick up shed horns to re-sell at auction. They have reaped hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. I know one horn buyer who has becme a millioniare selling shedhorns to Asia over the last 30 years. This is nothing new. Hunting horns is very popular out West. It is against the law to pick up and transport shedhorns from Yellowstone Park but the money is so good many try it anyway using some very "creative" techniques. Smuggling shedhorns out of Yellowstone at night has been know to happen :o)
But most horn hunting is totally legal and a popular hobby out West...a way to pick up some extra cash.

Vijay Singh is an easy target because he is not popular and has had a "checkered" past. He won't give the press the time of day. So they froth at the mouth over this. It truly is a witch hunt over nothing.

[RLL]

@KLG: +2 on Tomlin's Law, too.

[DTF]

Deadspin has a little story and links to a guy who seems to be somewhat of expert on steroids and has a webpage called thinksteroids (dot) com....they are having a good laugh over the whole thing and term it an "imaginary steroid scandal"! The guy further points out that milk and steak eaters would have to be considered dopers as these items contain IGF-1, trenbolone acetate and testosterone.

This whole thing is a joke. DEER ANTLER?!?!? People want to kick a guy off tour for *deer antler spray*....?? HAHAHA!!

Joke is on you people!

*Dumb* probably is a findable offense at Camp Finchem. Vijay is going to write a check for dumb. As is always the case we won't know for how much. Vijay will not miss any events. That's my prediction.

Roger nails it with this quote...."No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

This *deer antler spray* is a scam.

[RLL]

@DTF: - "Dumb" is not a fine-able offense at Camp Finchem because at Camp Finchem "dumb" is not findable...
;=]

[DTF]

As for "intent"....

I now know that milk contains IGF-1. If I drink 4 gallons a day, take a milk bath every night, and spread powdered milk over everything I eat all with the intention of getting bigger, stronger and reversing the effects of aging -- am I guilty of doping?

Completely separate from all that, I'm going camping this weekend and am stocking up on provisions...they tell me that running out of powdered water is the last thing you want to do, where can I pick up some of that?

(dang that autocorrect RLL!)

[RLL]

Rumor has it that at Camp Finchem, they also listen to U2 on the private jet and sing, "Still haven't found what I'm not looking for..."

[Claude]

Vijay has been one of the hardest working pros on the scene for as long as anyone can remember. I'd hate to see him get banned for a year over something like deer antler spray, which seems a minor a tonic as, say, homeopathy. Or ginseng. I'm no scientist but it seems like a natural thing. I could be persuaded if someone came up with a report that said it triggered some steroid-like boost. At this moment, though, the proof isn't there.

I can see why he's been gunshy.

[digsouth]

Ahhh, a thread for all time. Classic Shackalodian Theology Masters Class.

[elf]

In point of fact deer antler spray isn't banned, IGF-1 is banned. So in order for Vijay to have been taking a banned substance the spray has to be able to deliver IGF-1. And that is clearly not open and shut (never mind that you can get IGF-1 by spray anyways!). No offense, but this entire thing is laughable, and the idea that this will show whether or not the PGA Tour is serious about drug testing more laughable still.

Meanwhile DL3 is tweeting pics of protein shakes that he's ingesting in an effort to recover more quickly from surgery.

[No longer Used to be Former Stack & Tilt Convert]

Let's not forget the Hal Sutton, Jim Thorpe and Ken Green videos duckhooker posted here yesterday. Mysteriously the one of his posts with links to the videos in no longer up.

Where is the media reporting on Sutton, a Ryder Cup Captain? Oh yeah, they like Hal and hate VJ. Objective reporting takes a back seat to hate...

[DTF]

elf, excellent points all....

[chico]

I think the rights and wrongs of this spray are irrelevant-the fact remains that it contains a banned substance and the players were written to and advised not to use it.I don't believe VJ was ignorant of that letter-it would have been a hot topic.Vijay didn't take it because he thought it didn't work did he?
He has been stupid in the extreme and shouldn't get away with it because we think its snake oil!
As golf has signed up to drug testing it can't be selective with what bits it goes along with and which it doesn't.

[DTF]

chico, there is zero proof that the spray in fact contained a banned substance.

[duck!hooker]

So the Senior Tour doesn't test, but sent out a warning in August, 2011.

here you go s&t, i don't know where yesterday's post went? These all are prior to the August 2011 date, I don't know if these guys received similar warnings?

here is thorpe, at the 2:52 mark talking about the spray
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTIoNNo-9Bc

here is hal sutton, starting at the 1:43 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjLz0ka5BSs

and ken green at the 0:35 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okwb9mXHoSo

[Bobby D]

"Why haven't any reporters really looked hard at the product?"

good question

[D. maculata]

Thank you, chico!

Time to stick some *intent* in your pipe and smoke it DTF. But before you do, you might as well praise the man for not robbing a bank.

[duck!hooker]

So the Senior Tour doesn't test, but sent out a warning in August, 2011.

here you go s&t, i don't know where yesterday's post went? These all are prior to the August 2011 date, I don't know if these guys received similar warnings?

here is thorpe, at the 2:52 mark talking about the spray
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTIoNNo-9Bc

here is hal sutton, starting at the 1:43 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjLz0ka5BSs

and ken green at the 0:35 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okwb9mXHoSo

[DTF]

D. mac, so if I drink 4 gallons of milk a day, bathe in it every night, and spread powdered milk over everything I eat all with the *intent* of getting bigger, stronger, and reversing the effect of aging...in your book am I guilty of 'doping'?

Or would I just be a dumbass who's deluding himself?

There's more proof of IGF-1 in milk than there is in *deer spray*, lots more.

[RLL]

If we're going to praise those who would condemn Vijay Singh, we might as well praise today's bankers.

[Duck]

So the Senior Tour doesn't test,  but sent out a warning in August, 2011.

 

here you go s&t, i don't know where yesterday's post went?  These all are prior to the August 2011 date, I don't know if these guys received similar warnings?

 

here is thorpe, at the 2:52 mark talking about the spray

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTIoNNo-9Bc

 

here is hal sutton, starting at the 1:43 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjLz0ka5BSs

 

and ken green at the 0:35 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okwb9mXHoSo

 

[Bobby D]

So the Boy Scouts of America are guilty of selling a substance that is banned on the PGA Tour? Have I got that right?

[D. maculata]

I understand your reasoning, DTF. I just happen to agree with chico. And nobody has come out and said they saw him spray himself either, right? So maybe the PGAT is barking up the wrong tree. VJ should speak up and clarify things, you know, tell Tim Mrs. Singh bought it for him to spray on his antler.

[elf]

@D/Chico Vijay was rather talkative with the SI reporter, which is already outside the norm for him - so no I don't think he had any idea the spray potentially contained a banned substance. Everyone on tour is taking SOMETHING with the intent of enhancing their performance see Keegan - Creatin (etc etc etc)., it's just we have decided those things are legal.