Stack and Tilt

Which one is Stack and which one is Tilt? Oh wait, that's the method they're teaching. I was thinking of Bored and Grouchy over at GolfDigest.com.

I'm curious what you all think of the hottest teachers in the game, Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett, and their "Stack and Tilt" method that Golf Digest is humping the daylights out of in the June issue.  And Bob Carney followed up in the editor's blog.

It seems (to me) anyway that someone has finally taken what Mac O'Grady has been teaching for years, tweaked it a bit and simplified the message? No?

Comments

[Hawkeye]

I'm not familiar with Mac O'Grady's method, but I nearly spat out my morning coffee when I read this article - It's basically the technique that I played my best and most natural golf with as a teenager (Two swing thoughts: "right pocket back" and "left shoulder down". To hell with weight shift.). I was, however, more or less forced by my coach to change into a more Leadbetteresque, less "reverse-pivoty" action that was in vogue at the time (early 90's). Within a year, I had aquired a severe case of the duck-hooks from which I never recovered.
Does "stack and tilt" work? You betcha. You just need to keep the left forearm pressed against your rib cage, otherwise you'll hit hideous pull hooks. One note of caution, though: You really need to do the upper body "lift" through the ball, otherwise you'll screw up your lower back.

[Jacko]

When I see Tiger doing it, I will believe it...

[DAW]

This whole article would be more convincing if their comparison to a "standard" swing at the end were not so laughable. Those "standard" swing positions are ghastly. Whenever I see this sort of thing, little alarms go off in my head: "I'm being sold a bill of goods, because the seller is not properly representing the alternative."

Perhaps it is a good method of swinging, but it would be nice to have a fair comparison of the two methods.

[mtwetten]

I had a very similar thought to DAW about the comparison shots between the "standard" swing and the stack-and-tilt swing. However, I'd also say this is not exactly an "innovation" in swing instruction. If you can release your hands, the benefits of this method are pretty significant, but you have to really have a lot of power coming back into the ball on the downswing and you really have to keep your arms and hands inside. Who knows. Most golfers are better off working on repeating their swing rather than messing around with some new "innovation" every time they pick up a new magazine.

[mtwetten]

I had a very similar thought to DAW about the comparison shots between the "standard" swing and the stack-and-tilt swing. However, I'd also say this is not exactly an "innovation" in swing instruction. If you can release your hands, the benefits of this method are pretty significant, but you have to really have a lot of power coming back into the ball on the downswing and you really have to keep your arms and hands inside. Who knows. Most golfers are better off working on repeating their swing rather than messing around with some new "innovation" every time they pick up a new magazine.

[BobC]

I looked at the article last night and thought that there was a significant overlap with Jim Hardy's one plane swing theory.

[sodface]

I'd try it. But I'll try pretty much anything, the way I play...

[86general]

This may be the flavor of the month swing, but it goes against what all these high powered swing gurus (Leadbetter, Harmon, McLean, Ballard, etc.) have been teaching for years. That position at the top--straightening of the right leg, stacking up more on the left side, etc.--is what several PGA Pros have tried to teach _out_ of my golf swing for years.

I think Hogan swung the club the stack and tilt way. If you look at photos of him at the top, it looks like he didn't really shift his weight to the right per se, but had moved it to the right heel and left ball of foot, and remained centered about where he was at address.

[Chris]

I contacted several teachers of the game to gauge their reaction to Stack and Tilt for my blog, eagleparbirdie.com. Paul Wilson, creator of Swing Machine Golf which is based on Iron Byron and Roger Fredericks both had nothing good to say about the swing. Fredericks was the most detailed - his flexibility and stretching DVDs are just the latest stage of his career - he's been teaching the swing for years and can count some pre-eminent players as clients. His take on Stack and Tilt is exactly what Hawkeye warns. It can wreck your back. I'll bet you won't see this swing from any pro over 35 and NEVER on the Champions Tour. Which means, when all is said and done, it's a swing for young golfers. By the way, where are the young recreational golfers these days, anyway? In short, the swing has no future.

[shivas]

There is nothing new under the sun. I stumbled on this article and realized that this was basically my dad's swing from the 50s (dad was a damn fine player, and a particularly good ballstriker) -- with the locked right leg at the top, the raised right hip and the exaggerated up move after impact.

The only other player I ever saw lock the right leg and raise the right hip like that other than my dad was Sam Snead. This is for strong, handsy players who are comfortable with the club inside on the backswing. It'll cure the "hang-back flip-hook", for sure.

[mikeblake]

i took 2 lessons before this golf season started and what i was taught seems pretty similar to the "stack and tilt," though the name wasn't referenced.

bottom line: i'm 38 years old and have always played around 13-15, but this year have played to an 11. and i attribute it to this "new" swing that i really only use with sw-6 iron. my ball is struck very crisply and goes much straigher. and my misses are consistent(block out to right--not too far off-line) as opposed to misses going left and right.

i use my "old" swing with longer irons and woods. i feel more comfortable making the "normal" weight shift with the longer clubs. probably not too good to have two different swings but it's currently working.

for me, this swing works well with the "scoring clubs," especially with a 3/4 swing. which is probably the difference between shooting an 88 and an 84.

[6bmike]

All Mac. Plummer and Bennett are two very nice guys. Studied hard with Mac and if Mac can't get the inner courage to present his work to the world- I'm glad P&B worked it into a presentable package. Hardy swiped a lot from Mac without the long years of study.

[Jeff]

........more like "Shit and Top".

[JW]

The first 10 swings I made with this method, following a warm up with my normal swing, I used a 6I and could not believe my eyes when I started hitting a high hard draw 180 yards. I typically hit a high fade 170 with a 6I. But then I picked up my driver and hit 5 of the worst shots I've hit in years.

I'm with mikeblake on this one -- it's good for the mid-irons thru wedges but not for the longer clubs.

[ChrisR]

I have struggled with a reverse pivot for years, so I decided to see if I could make this work instead. 200 or so range balls later, I'd have to say that I'm sold. It looks akward, but I haven't hit 9 out of 10 straight in a long time. I found myself having to exaggerate the left knee bend with the longer clubs, but upon figuring out the adjustment I was nailing drives 280 on rope. May not work for all, but there are fewer swing thoughts, and if your prone to a reverse pivot on your backswing, you may just find this easier than fixing it.

[duaned]

I could care less if you call this a new swing, swing of the week, or voodoo, or whatever. Simple fact is that Stack and Tilt works for me!! I tried it on the range for the last 3 days and I am not only crushing the ball with little effort (irons and driver) I am hitting them straight on a rope as well. If I miss, my misses are on line or a little to the right. Fewer moving parts and fewer swing thoughts. Now I understand Mr. Hogan! Ten years ago I bought Hogan's book. His erroneous thought on his hip snap was really misleading which led me to put it up on a shelf in favor Leadbetter's book on The Golf Swing. What David and his contemporaries espoused was (is): spine tilt away from target, shift weight to right, wide extension on backswing, shift weight back to the left on downswing... etc. Way too many moving parts for me!! I am 53, in very good shape. I am a 12. The tilt and stack doesn't bother me. It's something I believe I can master. I'll let you know how it goes on the course.

[Steve]

For me this swing is a godsend. I have tried to shift weight like they all say for years. I can't do the orthodox shift well because I have clubbed feet and my right ankle especially gives me Hell. So I reckon I know a bit about trying to find a swing to make the shift easier. Probably the easiest I had found previously was to try and copy Moe's swing. Only thing was a severe lack of distance. Previous to that I used to swing back inside and used mostly body turn with most weight on the front (left) foot. Worked well but with severe low hooks. I read these guys and I see where I went wrong. They do what I was doing except with a neutral grip, more shoulder turn on the backswing and finishing higher, front on and turned right through to the target. It makes bucket loads of sense to me and after shooting 8 less than my handicap (20) last week it's as if someone just turned on all the lights. -

The ball goes straight and high with no hooks or fades just the occasional straight block right- not far off line. The driver needs a slow easy swing and ensure a high finish. To a chopper like me this stuff is awesome - I suppose the main thing is - I'm enjoying my golf again!

[williek56]

Tried it on the range for the first time. It shallowed out my swing, made me hit the ball far more accurately and my divots all were perfectly straight.The test comes tomorrow when I play 18 with it.

[teeithigh]

they say tilt 30 degrees left but have straight spine at the top???? is that because your arms and right side of body are going right so you tilt left to counterbalance and end up with a straight spine (albeit still tilted forward) ???? does this make sense????

[andy plummer]

chris

john cook is using it pretty well....1st on the tour in greens in regulation this week..tommy armour is using it pretty well as well 4th in greens in regulation this week.......john cook and tommy armour will be 2 of the top 3 on the tour in greens in regulation after this week.....both are over 45 and have no back problems.....problem is the teachers dont understand what causes the back problems

[noz]

Anyone know where to find these guys? Do they have any instructors out west??

[Bruce Barrington]

This article is a godsend for me. I am 65 years old and have played since I was a child. I have always maintained a relatively low handicap (now 5.2). I am 6'5" tall so I have never been able to relate to Hogan and other conventional teaching. As far back as I can remember I kept my weight on my left side during the swing. My left knee flexed forward and my right leg straightened on the backswing. About 20 years ago friends began to tell me I had a reverse pivot. After a long while, I took the poison and have since fought my natural swing in a effort to maintain horizontal rotation and constant right knee flex. I can do it--barely. But it is unnatural for me and produces some of the most godawful shots I have ever hit.

The Pummer/Bennet article gives me permission to hit the ball the way that feels best to me. The "tilt" move is new for me and really helps me load up without moving off the ball. I still have some work to do flattening my backswing but I am having the best practice sessions I have had in many years.

I really have to laugh about the "back pain" comments. This swing is nearly effortless for me. I can practice a lot longer now.

Thanks Andy & Mike

[Steve]

Can someone give me the name of a teacher near Frankfort Kentucky that teaches the stack andd tilt?

Thanks in advance

Also, does Andy have a golf school?

[Chris Moore]

These guys are geniuses, this golf swing is idiot proof and promotes solid contact every time, and just to make things better the ball travels prolly bout 5 yards farther, but that could be due to the solid contact, i really dont care

[B]

It scares me how bad modern teaching is. Let me ask all of you a question would you ever punch someone leaning towards then or do you ever see a baseball player at bat leaning towards the pitcher. Why would you want to be on your left side? How is that powerful? The players of old Hogan, Nicklaus they hit it so good with crap for equipment, I would love to see these guys with the one plane or stack and tilt compete in the old days with those guys.

[rion moore]

i had the chance to watch andy give an "on the fly" seminar for about two hours on the range a few months ago. i have had some so-called "good instruction" over the years and am a scratch player. you can write it down...this is the best way to hit a golf ball. my ball striking is the best it has ever been. misses are better, and better yet, i understand why i missed them! just look at the stats of relative unkowns who have won on tour since starting with plummer and bennett. of all i've read since the article came out, i haven't seen one demonstration or article saying WHY this method doesn't work best. there's simply no science to dispute it. this really is the start of a revolution in golf instruction....the early disciples get it and have proven it works while there is fierce opposition from the "establishment." and yes, lots of the instruction may be "old," which is fine. but my understanding is these guys have, through their own research, created a package that accounts for all aspects of the swing. and kudos to these two for putting it all together so that golfers can understand it.

[rion moore]

i had the chance to watch andy give an "on the fly" seminar for about two hours on the range a few months ago. i have had some so-called "good instruction" over the years and am a scratch player. you can write it down...this is the best way to hit a golf ball. my ball striking is the best it has ever been. misses are better, and better yet, i understand why i missed them! just look at the stats of relative unkowns who have won on tour since starting with plummer and bennett. of all i've read since the article came out, i haven't seen one demonstration or article saying WHY this method doesn't work best. there's simply no science to dispute it. this really is the start of a revolution in golf instruction....the early disciples get it and have proven it works while there is fierce opposition from the "establishment." and yes, lots of the instruction may be "old," which is fine. but my understanding is these guys have, through their own research, created a package that accounts for all aspects of the swing. and kudos to these two for putting it all together so that golfers can understand it.

[teeithigh]

andy or mike, how do u tilt 30 degrees left and end up vertical at the top??

[teeithigh]

how do u tilt 30 degrees left and end up vertical at the top??

[sh]

I just took a lesson with Andy Plummer yesterday, after reading the article in golf digest and trying Stack and Tilt for two weeks and two hours on the range after the lesson, Stack and Tilt has changed my iron game its harder with woods but the irons are great. The lesson helped answer some questions I had and after seeing video and doing somethings different I cant wait to play.

[86general]

I don't think there is any one swing that is more prone to cause back injuries than any other. All golf swings stress the back--for all of these myriad "different" swings out there, they all have much more in common than not. It's two turns and a swish, and it stresses the back quite a bit.

Back injuries in golf (I'm an M.D., so I have some basis for making these statements) are like in any sport--they are related to overuse and the cumulative effect of repeated small injuries over time. Classic things which promote a healthy back, such as maintaining the stretch and flexibility of the hamstrings, maintaining the strength of core/abdominal muscles, all reduce your risk of back injury. But if you play lots of golf, no matter what type of swing you have or how much you condition yourself, you stand a good chance of having some back problems.

Teachers who make claims that their swing is easier on the back (this has been claimed about Natural Golf, the modern/non-reverse C swing of Couples, Els, Woods, etc., and now Stack and Tilt, I guess) are misleading all of us. Don't believe it, stick to basics and take care of things we KNOW will help your back.

[58yroldscratch]

A few years ago, David Lee ("gravity golf",btw the fault with gravity golf was an incorrect backswing creating too much width.), had some drills that among others you would swing on only your left foot. Having been raised on "Hogan's 5 fundamentals" it was amazing to me how effectively, effortlessly and consistently I hit the ball off of just the left foot. (try it if you have doubts). These guys have come as close to NAILING a correct swing as I've seen in my life; and there aren't many I haven't experimented with. One overriding thought, THE CONVENTIONAL DOGMA OF A BIG WEIGHT SHIFT TO THE BACK LEG IS JUST PLAIN WRONG, and requires freakish timing to work over a period of years. IMO it is one of the reasons that some of the most gifted golfers are so streaky.

[Mike M in KC]

I don't know if wins on the PGA tour is realy a good measure for this swing's success, after all it's putting that produces wins on tour not GIR. But it sure doesn't hurt and more importantly for amateurs it makes a huge difference. That is why I don't need to validate this by anyone else's standards, All I know is I'm hitting the ball crisper than I ever have in 30 years. So, second guess it all you want, that just means there will be fewer players for us to compete with. good luck all and stack that left side.

[thilo]

Hi, I am from Germany playing an 11 and found the article on golfdigest.com by surprise.
Wow, finally a swing I was looking for, simple and fewer moving parts.
The first shots on the range I could not belive my eyes. Higher and longer on every iron and wood. Bad shots are still ok. I can take one iron down on every par 3 in my golf club now. This swing will revolute the game of golf!!! Everybody who is talking against this swing has not tried it out. My whole family and girl friend has switched to this swing. Everybody has improved its game and it did take only a couple of hours. Thank the two pros to bring the simplicity back to this wonderfull game.

[Steve]

SH
where did you take the lesson with Andy? do you have contact info?

thanks
Steve

[sh]

Steve, Andy teaches at Aronimink in Newtown Square Pa phone# 610-356-8000. I don't know where Mike teaches.

[subterraneanpgh]

havent had a chance to try this yet, but definately intrigued. that said, fight hooks and pulls when i miss. though i dig the simplicity, i worry this will make my problem worse. seems the 'spring up' motion will help prevent bad misses left. anyone have any thoughts???

[Mike Uysal]

I have read stack&tilt with interest. It opened up lot of experiences I had with the methods of Tomasello and O'Grady that Mike Plumber gives credit to in the GD article. Tomasello who was the Golfing Machine guru of the East coast with Ben Doyle on the West coast was a very colorful character. He was like a character out of the movie Good Fellas ready to teach you his wisdom and knowledge of the golf swing. When I asked him a question about relevancy of forearm power in the forward swing - he would go "Comeannnnn, it's not forearm power at all - the confusion is because of the illusion - who's going to figure this out?" and he would laugh.

Like O'Grady Tomasello interpreted the Golfing Machine by Homer Kelly. I heard that Mac had some issues with information in Kelly's nevertheless Golfing Machine had influence in his teaching. I could summarize A.J's method as a forearm pickup combined with a right hip turn for backwswing. Forearm unfolds immediately and left hip turns simultaneously for the forward swing with chest finishing high. A.J. had a super smooth motion through the ball - not mechanical at all. O'Grady also looks efortless, great symmetry, swinging like a statue and you can really hear the crack of the club-face - you will be intrigued with the sound which distinguishes the expert ball strikers from the rest of the mortals - sorry for the elitism but it's not brain surgery and nobody is curing cancer.

There is no wasted motion in the O'Grady swing. It is highly efficient and athletic. It uses all of the body parts but all parts are used with precision and balance. When I watched him demonstrate some intricate moves on the role of the hips to a student, it was like Barshnikov (balet dancer) demonstrating very exacting moves to a student. A.J jokingly told me once, "crazy Mac never condoned a bad swing and I am not that sane myself". Mac is complicated in his methods but a true swinging and ball striking virtuoso. He probably knows more about the golf swing than anyone past or present. He has compelling arguments and great demonstrative ability.

I would watch Mac conduct a clinic at the Whittier Narrows public course of all places in Rosemead California. He would appear out of nowhere for his clinic and I would watch from a distance and then proceed hitting better than I ever did. Unfortunately the magic would last for a few days - something changes, we interfere here an there and back to the drawing board.

Formally speaking Mac does not give lessons to the public. You have to work into it through one of his teaching assistants that he recycles based on his mood. However he is not totally inacessible. I have talked to few aspiring players struggling to make it to the mini-tours or the NationWide with limited funds and he will spend time with them for no charge. These guys would tell me a session with Mac is guaranteed to change your perspective on the golf swing and probably some other things you didn't think about. My experiences with A.J. were in the same spirit - quality of information and demonstration made all the difference. A.J. believed in getting paid promptly because he felt information about the golf swing is a business commodity and some people are not clear about this.

I have seen Mac demonstrate a variety of swing methods all different from one another and he could hit the same shots from left or right and make the ball fly identically the same. A.J OTH never mentioned anything about the tilting left on the backswing. Legs were entirely a supportive platform. He felt leg action in the forward swing made you move too much laterally. He believed in finishing with the chest high. Head which weighs approx 17 pounds had to be controlled and held back in the forward swing. Mac also teaches this as well as tilting left to start the swing.

I think Mike Plumber is closer to Mac's method than A.J. who has passed away some years back. The forward/upward thrust of the hips is from Mac who advocates the tail-bone finishing over the metatarsals of your left foot (for right handers) at the finish. This is definitely for the strong and flexible. The key is to start gradually - muscles will stretch over time.

Stack&titlt works great for me with the ball on the ground. With the ball teed up - particularly the driver I am still searching for something reliable. At times I do hit good shots but the bad ones are weak slices with a feeling of blocked arms and open club-face at impact.

Mike Plumber advocates 60/40 weight distribution for the irons. He is not clear whether he advocates the same when the ball is teed up for the driver. 60/40 makes sense for the irons which results in better compression through the turf.

For the forward swing Mike Plumber advocates upward thrust of the buttock muscles while the arms are swinging down. MY QUESTION IS: As the body stands up through the soda can being crushed with the left leg (right hand player) - are the arms swinging down or is the trunk rotating left and tilting with arms close to the rib cage?

In other words, is it an arm swing or trunk rotation? There is a difference. Swinging the upper arms is like a throwing motion. Trunk rotation implies completely passive arms married to your rib cage. Which is it Mike?

[rion moore]

mike,
with the driver, be sure to tee it fairly low to start with. this is key. if you truly return the club to the bottom where it started, the club would swoop right under the ball if the ball is teed high. to hit a highly teed ball, you have to lift the bottom of the arc by tilting back on the downswing. the height of the teed ball is not related to distance. the top of the ball should be equal with the top of the driver. they say most tour guys are teeing pretty low these days. also, exaggerate taking your hands around your waist on the backswing so as not to get steep.

on the follow through, the stand-up motion allows your hips to keep rotating through with the upper body. if you simply think stand up and keep your arms on the ribcage, you should be right on.

when i first started this months ago, the driver was the toughest for me because i didnt understand what was supposed to be happening. now, not having to tilt back on the driver follow through makes for very consistent strikes with very little potential for too much curve.

[steve]

Ditto with driver challenges though the last few comments look very promising to try. otherwise, I hit real golf shots for the first time in my life today with a friend who read the article, tried it yesterday and coached me for ten minutes today... that simple. I've had one lesson in my life, am an 11.9 and expect to see better numbers soon after this, just need to figure out the woods and driver.