Sunday
Jul292007
Is That Anyway To Treat A Flag?
Reader NRH noticed Natalie Gulbis's lack of American flag etiquette, but perhaps since she won the Evian Masters on French soil she was entitled to treat the flag as a stool cover?
Now boys and girls, let's try to keep the photo captions PG-13 rated...photo courtesy of golf.com:
Sunday, July 29, 2007 at 10:33 PM
Reader Comments (46)
Damian W. Smith
Staff Sergeant
U.S. Air Force Reserve
I remember as a kid when a flag was thrown by a spectator at Dodger Stadium, and Rick Monday sprinted and dove to catch the flag before it hit the ground. The Gulbis photo suggests that many people do not know even this most basic flag etiquette anymore.
The one at the below link was headed for that list, but some quick action by a Dodgers outfielder made it a moment flag lovers will never forget!
www.keepingapace.com/blogarchives/sports/baseballs_greatest_play.php
Now if a non-American won the Womern's US Open or any event for that matter, and posed in this way, that would be very very disrespectful..
However skewed I may qppear to be in my thinking, to compare it to an attempted flag burning is over the top just a little.
As an endnote, people who are disrespecting the flag of our great country are not necessarily against the USA, but showing their distaste for the actions of the executive branch.
Given the above, jneu, your comment is truly priceless!!! hahahaha
Please read what I say, and not what you want to read so that you can satisfy your own need for emotional titillation.
As I said in the beginning of my post, I respect the opinion of those who are in or have been in the armed services [and therefore know the proper care and respect due to the flag] "so please don't hammer me on this."
Thanks :)
So I will cut her all the slack she needs, heck I'll give her a big hug if it helps her! Natalie has come along way from the bikini girl to a champion, and I hope she continues to be a factor on the LPGA.
...that said, her behavior I would describe as a rudeness borne of ignorance. It's like someone coming over to your house for dinner and using your linen tablecloth to wipe their mouths, not because they dislike you, just because they don't know any better.
I'm certain we can all agree she will get a nice lesson in flag etiquette out of this, and probably turn it into a positive, like doing something additional for our troops!
But enough of this, on to the work at hand...
"Does this make my butt look big?"
So with that in mind I see noting worth getting upset about here.
Personally, I'd love to see this photo reproduced in poster size and plastered everywhere Al Quaida and radicial Muslims hang in the Middle East because it symbolizes everything about us they hate.
And kudos to Natalie. She succeeded where Laura Davies, Anna Kournakova and so many others have failed.
Please don't see this as "hammering," but I want to respond to what you said.
I think much of what you said is 100% correct--I doubt she intended any disrespect, and probably was trying to express pride. I don't think it comes close to an attempted flag burning.
For me, it's not a righteous moral issue, but it is a matter of etiquette, and it's not a trivial one.
The photo is light hearted and possibly intended as patriotic by her. But she is using a powerful symbol in that photo as a prop, and she's not respecting the symbol.
Her action reflects either ignorance or disregard for customs and courtesies that are held very dear by millions of people. People who fought in wars or lost relatives in wars tend to look at the flag in a more serious way than the rest of us.
She could have accomplished the same thing - cute photo, patriotism - by waving a little flag, or draping one around her shoulders, or any number of other gestures that would have satisfied the rules of flag etiquette and avoided offending people. The fact that she didn't does not reflect well on her, the photographer, the tournament officials, or the LPGA.
Again, not saying she should go to jail or be fined or anything, but just as you don't call the Queen "old lady," you don't take liberties with the flag.
On a site where we get up in arms about the traditions of golf, the sanctity of classic golf courses, the moral imperatives of the USGA, is it really being unreasonable to get just a little upset at someone for sitting on the flag? And shouldn't the breach of etiquette be pointed out for others, in case there are more people ignorant in these matters?
I agree with and appreciate your post. Thank you, etiquette is the right word. It is interesting that the first picture I saw this morning, which I wrongly thought was on the golf.com site - unless they changed it, was of Natalie Gulbis with the flag, as you suggest, draped around her shoulders. However, looking now I see it is the same as the one here. Perhaps another site.
Smitty,
My reaction to you writing "I used to allow well-meaning and patriotic folks such as yourself the excuse of protesting the Chief Executive by flag burning," led me to believe that you mistakenly thought of me as being a flag burner. Ugh.;(
I can't rightfully salute the flag, but I can put my hand over my heart ;)
Thank you both for your very graceful responses, much the same as I have always witnessed when I have visited West Point. the last time being when they got a good ol' shellacking from Air Force Smitty! Most polite people as you can find. I hope I have achieved some level of the same.
Cheers ;)
I believe very strongly that living in the 'land of the free' involves the right to cause offence as well as to be offended. As Voltaire said, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That said, I don't approve of people who knowingly cause offence without good reason. If you appreciate what it means to the bereaved families of members of the armed forces you should not take their feelings lightly. Equally, I am thoroughly bored, and not a little alarmed, by people who rush to take offence at the first sight of a minor breach. In all these questions, in a free society, it is a question of balancing the rights and sensitivities of different people.
I am 100% sure that Gulbis had no sense that she was committing a breach of 'flag etiquette' when she posed for the pictures. I am sure that it was a spur of the moment thing and most likely set up for her by the photographers.
Whilst I certainly respect the reverence that some of you have for the flag, were I her and heard a chorus of disapproval about this entirely trivial photograph I would make it my business not to associate myself with the flag again unless absolutely necessary (e.g. Solheim Cup). There are plenty of ways to celebrate when you have won a golf tournament without having to worry about stepping on the toes of the etiquette police. I'd happily leave mucking about with the flag to you lot and your rules and get on with my life without it.
Is that what you want?
You're right that there is the right to protest by defacing the flag, if that is your aim. No problem with that. But if you're trying to be patriotic, you ought to respect the flag and follow the rules. I would also agree that she probably _was_ being patriotic, and had no idea that what she was doing was a faux pas. That doesn't make it ok.
You said: :were I her and heard a chorus of disapproval about this entirely trivial photograph I would make it my business not to associate myself with the flag again unless absolutely necessary (e.g. Solheim Cup). There are plenty of ways to celebrate when you have won a golf tournament without having to worry about stepping on the toes of the etiquette police. I'd happily leave mucking about with the flag to you lot and your rules and get on with my life without it."
It's not really that complicated. You don't let the flag touch the ground. You don't hang it upside down. You don't do anything overtly crude or disgusting to it. I am 42 years old and was taught this in grade school and high school, and I think it's still taught in US schools, but I'm not sure.
It's not that big a deal, she or someone should have known about it.
As I said, we get quite upset around here about classic golf courses, the ethics of the game, the responsibilities of the ruling bodies. It isn't too much to ask that someone respect a national flag. There's also nothing wrong about letting Gulbis know about it, without any need for shouting or sanctimonious attacks.
Here's a question I'd like to throw out to everyone. What would be your reaction if Natalie came out on her blog or at the next tourney, whatever, and stated that she apologized for her faux pas and that she regretted offending anybody? How would all of you feel? Does this provide appropriate resolution?
Personally, she is old enough to be responsible for her actions. This also provided an opportunity for me to reinforce to my daughters (elem. school age) concepts about respect for the flag.
However, if someone uses the flag incorrectly in a spur of the moment rush of enthusiasm I think it carmudgeonly in the extreme for anyone to describe that as 'offensive' - and to be fair to you I'm not sure you did. I don't see why the LPGA should take the photo down to avoid causing offence - they might take it down because it is a damn silly photograph, but that's another story.
On a wider note, I am a bit edgy about reverence to a flag - it smacks to me of sentimentality (in the sense of strong emotive feelings, as opposed to feelings based in logic) which is open to abuse in many ways. Soldiers don't have a choice, they have to owe alleigance to the command structure and get on with it regardless of their views, that's fair enough, and flags have always been a potent battlefield symbol.
The rest of us do not need to adopt the same attitudes, and IMHO should proceed carefully (albeit not needlessly disrespectfully).
Personally, I would rather sportsmen in individual sports did not wave flags, whoever they were/are. It is difficult to avoid in team sports, but neither welcome nor particularly necessary in individual sports - I like Mickelson but I'm not American, I don't see how his nationality comes into it until Ryder Cup time.
I cannot really respect flag-burning as a valuable political gesture in most instances because it is so non-specific - it looks much more like a random act of hatred for all things connected with the country rather than a serious way of protesting against particular policies or actions of a state which, almost by definition, a large minority of any given country will disagree with anyway. Flag-burning tends to be carried out by those with a diposition to be offended easily in any event - which brings me back to my second paragraph...
http://www.flagclothes.com/_image.aspx?filename=productimages/zooms/longsleeve_SS.jpg&w=208
The most offensive piece of flag related clothing I have seen is a pair of boxer shorts. Mostly in light blue, but with many little flags all over the garment.
As for teaching of flag etiquette, in my years of public school, mostly on the east coast, but a couple of years in the mid-west, the issue never came up, except for the constitutional issues of flag burning. I learned everything I know from my very conservative grandfather.
This is why so many people are turned off by patriotism because uber-patriots like you who take this shit WAY too seriously. You should be proud that you love your country so much but don't rag on other people just because they show their love in a way that twists your panties.
Giovanni: You might want to read all of the comments. I think you're overstating Smitty's position. This discussion has been polite and nice, all the way around.
And yes, there are far more serious problems in the world than Natalie's ass on the flag, and the flag on the ground...but the same can be said of the ProV1 rendering "classic courses obsolete," or Walter Driver, or any number of other things we carry on about here. Nothing wrong with discussing this in the nice way we have been doing it.
That's the point of the discussion to begin with. It's not just a piece of cloth. It's a symbol.
"If the qualities that make the US great are embodied in a bit of fabric, we are all in trouble."
The virtuous qualities of the US are not embodied in the flag, no. But the flag is symbolic of those virtues. If you want to be patriotic, you ought to know the proper way to display the flag.
I don't think what she did was a "personal foul," but more like "traveling." That said, there's nothing wrong or stuck up or over-zealous about being respectful of a national flag. I'd treat any nation's or organization's flag the same way.
So, by this logic, an America lovin' NASCAR fan can't wear this hat that just screams "I love America!" because all of his/her America lovin' sweat will tarnish the image of Old Glory?
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tQhoUWLeL._SS500_.jpg
I'm pretty sure, much like Natalie Gulbis, people who wear this hat have no intentions of sullying the flag, however, they simply want to show their love of their country.
You're missing what I'm saying about etiquette.
Rules of etiquette say what you _should_ do, based on basic ideas of courtesy and civility.
No, you don't _have_ to do anything. Property rights do indeed trump symbolism. Etiquette isn't about what you have the right to do, it's about what you should do.
The reason she would apologize, Clove, is that some people, possibly many people, might actually give a shit. It's no problem if you don't. But some people might, because the flag is very meaningful to many people. That's what etiquette is about, doing things because out of respect for others.
And Giovanni, as Tighthead mentioned, using a likeness of the flag, or red white and blue, or stars and stripes, on clothing, hats, cars, whatever, is not the same thing as an American flag.
The fact that she meant no harm may excuse her of deserving the wrath of a zealous flag waiver, but it doesn't change the fact that what she did was a breach of etiquette. The action is judged on its own merit, not the intention of the person who carried out the act.
I am not a flag waiver, or a zealous patriot, or a xenophobe, nor have I been in battle or lost a friend or relative in battle. But honestly, the fact that this argument persists amazes me. What's wrong with being respectful of the feelings of others? Even if you don't know specifics of flag etiquette, the general notion that it is proper to respect the flag cannot have possibly escaped anyone raised in the US. Any sports fan in the US has respected the flag by rising and facing it and probably putting his hand over his heart dozens of times; major league baseballers do it every day for 20 years.
All I am saying is that what she did is a breach of etiquette, is disrespectful to the flag, and should be recognized as such.
Nor can you perform any action in a public setting and guarantee that no one will be offended by something - whether that is Natalie wearing a short skirt offending a sexually-repressed Muslim or Natalie posing on a piece of colored cloth offending a flag zealot.
I do hope she ignores the criticism and instead enjoys her well-earned victory.