Ray Floyd On WGHOF: "There are guys in there that it's a joke."

In a wide ranging and provocative interview in the new Golf Magazine, Connell Barrett gets Ray Floyd to open up about an array of topics.

He's the first current Hall of Famer to question the recent entrants that many have felt were not worthy of inclusion.

Who has been elected to the Hall who doesn't deserve it?

Just look at the inductees over the last six, eight, 10 years. Some years, I don't even vote because the names are not worthy of induction. One major should not get you into the Hall of Fame -- maybe one major and 40 wins. I'm not gonna pick a guy with one major and 11 wins.

Fred Couples has one major and 15 Tour wins, and Colin Montgomerie never won a major, and they'll be enshrined this year. It sounds like they didn't get your vote.

I'll just say that you should have at least two majors. At least! Wow, there are guys in there that it's a joke. It takes integrity away from the term "Hall of Fame." I'm very upset at the Hall of Fame.

Comments

[KLG]

Great stuff!

Digs, this passage is for you:
Speaking of putting, what do you think about the proposed ban on anchoring?
It would not be good for golf. Golf is a game, and games are meant to be enjoyed. I remember when Bush 41 was president. He started playing again when the long putter came out because it helped with his yips. The long putter helped him enjoy the game again.

[phil the author]

Well, Raymond had it half right anyway. He seems to be thinking that its only the PLAYERS who've been recently inducted who shouldn't be in there... Yet he makes no mention of why there are so few architects. Without them there would be nothing but open fields, back yards and no PGA Tour Raymond. Without the great ones there would also be no US & British Opens, Masters or any tournament that even tries to portray itself as a "Major."

Enough already... Its time that Albert Warren Tillinghast was enshrined, espcially as EVERYONE believes that he should be in.

In the past few years there have been those inducted because their health was so bad that the Hall wanted to make sure they would be enshrined while still living. Well, even though Tilly passed away in 1942, there are 4 surviving grand-children of his who knew him well and can share incredible anecdotes and family stories about his work as some were brought by him to building sites and about him as a person. All of them are now well advanced in years and they certainly deserve to see the HOF induct Tilly before THEY pass along and we lose the last 1st person accounts of this incredible golf course architect, outstanding golf writer, pioneer golf photographer and golf reporter who deserves induction into the hall for each of those 4 categories of life achievement separate from the others...

Put Tilly in...

[FW]

Phil the Author
AMEN

[Media maven]

Tom Kite, Monty, Wadkins and Couples are fairly recent 1-major inductees. Agree they've lowered the bar, but not sure when it started. Prob. when they built that colossus in St. Augustine and had to draw some attention to get people to go see it. The HOF in Pinehurst seemed a lot less commercial, and they had trouble drawing people.

[elf]

Floyd would potentially be right if winning and winning majors now was exactly as hard as it was back in his day. It's not, between better equipment, better conditioning, better pay, and increased depth it's exponentially harder.

As an aside, agree architects should be in.

[Bobby D]

Monty won a Major? When was that?

[No Majors Is In...?....WTF]

Who picks the names that go on the ballot?

[Alex H]

@ elf-

I don't know about that. If it was really exponentially harder, that would imply that you'd have to be an exponentially better player to win a major. That said, there were plenty of fluke major winners with (at best) marginal talent...at least when compared to the really great players. Do the names Shaun Micheel, Rich Beem, Ben Curtis, Todd Hamilton, etc. ring a bell? I don't think anybody in their right mind is expecting that any one of those folks' career may be considered Hall of Fame worthy when all is said and done.

And to be sure - this is not to diss their effort...Played fantastic golf for a week, all great guys and great players, but I don't think their wins support the notion that it's exponentially harder to win a major.

[3foot1]

Well said, Alex H.

To win a major you have to be the best player in the field that week -- no, probably the best short-game player in the field.

I've always respected the old LPGA criteria -- better to be too tough but objective, than too easy and arbitrary.

[Mulligans Do Count]

Can't wait for Y.E. Yang's induction. LMAO!

[elf]

@Alex H

That's exactly my point. I'm saying that because there are so many more guys that can win now, it's harder to win, and it's especially hard to win often (which is what you're talking about with winning 40 events, multiple majors etc). Back in the day, you were much less likely to get beat by the 200th best player in the world, if you have to beat fewer people, it's easier to win.

[Jim]

I thought the Ray Floyd article was excellent. I totally agree with him on the HOF but greatness just does not seem to exist as it once did. Maybe because of deeper competition, maybe because of the money, and any number of other reasons. They should have kept it for the truly deserving (and included more worthy architects). I disagree with the anchoring view, to me it is not a golf swing. If someone in a game at a club wants to play with it and the foursome agrees fine but in a competition I don't think so. If someone gets more enjoyment out of the game then play with a long anchored putter but it should not be allowed in competition (just as mulligans are not allowed and they are taken all the time). The long anchored putter takes some of the nerves away. But I really respected the way that Ray loves his wife Maria and the amount of respect he has for her. That was wonderful and really gets me to respect the man as a true gentleman. Over all I really like Ray Floyd, loved the way he played and approached the game and respect him as a man.

[Jim]

Sorry to go to the anchored putter issue again but no one would be stopping the casual golfer from using an anchored stroke just as no one prevents "gimmes" during a round for enjoyment etc. Bush 41 could still use an anchored putter to enjoy and continue to take gimmes if he so chooses if it helps his enjoyment but just not in competition (unless of course in a match play situation. There is bifurcation in games at clubs all around (like dropping a lost ball rather than going back to the tee, etc). I just wish someone as solid as Floyd would make that distinction if they are going to go and use the casual golfer to justify keeping it for the pros.

[Alex H]

@ elf

I see your point...but it's a bit tricky, no? The mere fact that there are now more players that could generally be considered good players who could win in any given week doesn't necessarily mean that the winners are great players. I think you'd agree with me on that re: the players I mentioned?
On the other hand, I'd probably agree with you that picking up 2-3 majors could be considered a bigger accomplishment nowadays than during Ray's era. Could Angel Cabrera be in the discussion for the HoF one day? Boy, I hope I don't have to make that call.

[KLG]

The ocean is much wider now, but a lot shallower and a lot less treacherous. It was not easier to win a Major in times gone by. Going from memory, Jack finished second 19 times, to among others Trevino (4), Watson (4), Palmer (2), Player (1), Lema (1), Ballesteros (1). Except for Lema, these are also the players Ray Floyd had to beat. Yeah, I'm old. But back in the day, 50th on the money list got you an insecure job at Bending Wedge Country Club, if you were lucky. Now it gets you a house at Frederica and a NetJet to get you from St. Simons to Pebble Beach. Nothing wrong with that, so long as it lasts. But it doesn't select for champions.

[elf]

@Alex H, no most of the guys winning aren't great, my point was its harder for the great players to accumulate as high "counting numbers" (i.e. you count the number of majors) bc it's a lot more likely someone random has a hot week and can hang with you.

@KLG your argument is circular, it was easier to finish in the top 5 when the guy who finished 50th on the $$ list couldn't spend all day practicing bc he had to work another job. Hence you rack up more top 5's (and you get more wins). If you don't believe me, look at Tiger, Rory's, Lee, Luke's record on the Euro tour, or when the the SA play their home tour. They rarely miss cuts, and are nearly always in contention bc they don't have as many guys who can take them down if they don't have their A game.

[KLG]

Could be, elf. All such arguments are circular, which is why they never end. But I don't believe I was talking about any "Top-5" any more than a single one of those players I mentioned cared about finishing 5th in any tournament or championship in which he ever played. Nor was I talking about the guy at 50th on the money list being at a disadvantage because he had to work another job. The point is that, back then (which means before the all-exempt TOUR for practical purposes), the guy at 50th would be looking for another job soon. Nor would I put Westwood or Donald in anywhere near the same category as TIger, or Rory. Not to mention Phil. But that's just me, I guess.

[Sarge]

Especially interesting since Ray Floyd and Fed Couples have always been pretty close, or so I am lead to believe

[Bobby D]

"But back in the day, 50th on the money list got you an insecure job at Bending Wedge Country Club"

Last year, Jonathan Byrd finished 50th on the money list and earned $1,616,789.00!...heck, John Daly, that hacker, finished 151st on the list and made $488,505.40! The PGA Tour... it's like rolling a wine bottle into a jail cell full of drunks!

[elf]

@KLG you mentioned second place albeit in majors, my point was its easier to have a top finish with a weaker field, and was using the modern day Euro Tour as an example. As to the 50th player in the world, exactly. Think about it, how many guys nowadays are better their 2nd 3rd 4th year? Nowadays they have that luxury. In Jack's day if you couldn't make money fast you often had to go get another job. That hurts depth, and increases the chasm between the few elites and everyone else. While there may be a few guys who are "slackers" on the current tour, most of them work tremendously hard. And if they didn't they'd lose their spot on tour.

[Doctor]

For those distressed at the paucity of architects, be patient. One will get in soon, and after that a flood will follow. Pete Dye will be be among the very first because A) he deserves it, B) he's on this side of the dirt and C) he'll say funny, homespun stuff at the dinner. After the terrific Jenkins and Alliss acts last year, humor secretly has become a powerful commodity.

[Stiggy]

Ray Floyd is lucky that Abu Dhabi Golfer doesn't have the casting vote. I don't think he had Floyd in the "real" Hall of Fame :)

[Sari]

Stiggy: I was just thinking the same thing!

Floyd doesn't make the ABD hall of fame, which is limited to a dozen players. In fact, he doesn't even come close!

[KLG]

Well, yes. I mentioned that Jack finished second in Majors at least 13 times to bona fide Hall of Famers (Lema died too soon to make it, but would have). And no, it doesn't hurt "depth." It just means the rank and file turns over faster. Which would be a good thing. Having said that, it would be a very nice life to finish about 85th on the Money List every year...and that is the point ;-)

[phil the author]

Doctor,

Pete Dye IS in the Hall. He was put in several years ago. As much as he deserves to be in there, as does Robert Trent Jones Sr., NEITHER of them should have been put in BEFORE Tillinghast, Harry Colt, William Flynn, Perry Maxwell and several others.

By the way, we're still waiting for that FLOOD of architect inductions that you mentioned...

[The Pro from Dover]

Lanny W. did win 20 times on the TOUR (including his 1 Major), which is an accomplishment within itself - that is lifetime exemption and there are only Mickleson, TW, DL III, and Vijay still active on the big tour to have reached that plateau. 20 wins and only 1 major is deservant. But Freddy and not O'Meara? Give me a break. Didn't know the Silly Season counted!? Freddy was a big under-achiever. And while we are adding to the deserving architect's list, add Dick Wilson. Agree wth Phil the Author. Larry Neson, 3 majors, but only 10 wins, yes.

[KG]

Many goods points in this discussion.
I think we need to look back back and compare previous decades and see how many journeymen won majors. Interesting to see if recent years are producing more "fluke" winners and try to determine the cause. I am not sure previous decades did not have plenty of one-offs as well. But more importantly why we are seeing more "flukes" if that is indeed true. My guess is that course set ups don't produce the best players as winners and leave more to chance. Difficult to prove but worth discussion.

I am not sure I agree that you must win majors to be in, I respect Ray because he is a former great but not sure that is criteria A.

Oh, and C.B Macdonald and Flynn go in the hall.

[The Pro from Dover]

C.B is aleady in!

[Steve Wozeniak PGA]

John Daly..........whoooops

[Sari]

Plenty of one offs in generations past, eg Orville Moody, Jack Fleck, Ed Furgol, Dick Mayer...

[Doctor]

@phil the author, I really whiffed on Pete Dye. Truth I've told, I didn't know C.B. Macdonald was in either.

[Abu Dhabi Golfer]

Finally, someone who agrees with me that the WGOF is way too watered down.

That said, Ray Floyd is not in my "Real Golf Hall of Fame"

On the outside looking in, but not in.

[Abu Dhabi Golfer]

THE REAL GOLF HALL OF FAME

Allan Robertson
Old Tom Morris
Young Tom Morris
JH Taylor
Harry Vardon
James Braid
Walter Hagen
Bobby Jones
Gene Sarazen
Byron Nelson
Ben Hogan
Sam Snead
Bobby Locke
Peter Thompson
Arnold Palmer
Gary Player
Jack Nicklaus
Lee Trevino
Seve Ballasteros
Tom Watson
Nick Faldo
Phil Mickelson - Active
Ernie Els - Active
Tiger Woods - Active

[Abu Dhabi Golfer]

THE REAL GOLF HALL OF FAME

Allan Robertson
Old Tom Morris
Young Tom Morris
JH Taylor
Harry Vardon
James Braid
Walter Hagen
Bobby Jones
Gene Sarazen
Byron Nelson
Ben Hogan
Sam Snead
Bobby Locke
Peter Thompson
Arnold Palmer
Gary Player
Jack Nicklaus
Lee Trevino
Seve Ballasteros
Tom Watson
Nick Faldo
Phil Mickelson - Active
Ernie Els - Active
Tiger Woods - Active

[Hawkeye]

Players not eligible for the ADGHOF:

Billy Casper (3 majors, 51 PGA Tour wins)
Ray Floyd (4 majors, 22 PGA Tour wins)
Vijay Singh (3 majors, 34 PGA Tour wins)

And quite how Els gets in with those guys on the outside escapes me, but anyway. I agree that the list is a good summary of the titans of the game, but it's a bit like a Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame with just Elvis, Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Led Zep and Pink Floyd in it - they are names that are forever notched into the perception of avid followers anyway, and don't need a Hall of Fame to remain historically relevant. I've always thought that one of the great things about the HoF was that it recognized the important bit players in different eras, players that were head and shoulders above the masses but not quite at the absolute top for a sustained period of time. I agree that 1 major and 15 Tour wins is a bit of a stretch, but players like the ones I mentioned above plus the likes of Miller, Irwin, Langer, Norman, Olazabal etc. deserve historical recognition also.

P.S. Don't call me an idiot this time. Not when you can't spell Seve's last name correctly.

[Jonathan]

Is Daly the only multiple winner who will never get in?

[Bobby D]

"when they built that colossus in St. Augustine and had to draw some attention to get people to go see it. "

bingo

[Stingy]

Jonathon, Andy North is another multiple major winner who won't get in.
Also for some reason David Graham isn't in there yet either.

I would respect Floyd more if he had pointed out that President Bush had no right being in there.

[fyg]

20 wins and 1 major is not deservant, imo.

Wadkins and Kite don't belong in the HOF. Couples in the HOF is a joke.

[Robert M. Young]

As a family member of C.B. Macdonald, I was very proud to represent him when he was inducted in 2007. I fully agree that more of the Golden Age arcitects deserve the same recognition.