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Archive 10/04 to 07/05
« Costas: I'd have to discuss Augusta's "History of racism and sexism"
Paramor Zaps Guan With Masters Slow Play Penalty »
Instant Poll: Do you agree with the slow play penalty assessed to Tianlang Guan?
Do you agree with the 1-shot slow play penalty assessed to Tianlang Guan?
Friday, April 12, 2013 at 02:54 PM
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Reader Comments (32)
Out of position on 10, on the clock on 12, warned on 13, let something slide on 16, and then took well over the allotted time on 17.
East End Golfer
Exactly what East End said, it's ridiculous guys get that many warnings (which is why pro's never get penalized), but after all that he's earned the penalty.
Here's the other thing: if Guan wasn't 14 we'd all be applauding. So what's the age limit on when it's ok to penalize? Is it ok only if it's not an Amateur? If you're going to have 14 year olds playing in the tournament you can't treat them differently than anyone else. According to multiple reports other pro's have been warned today, most pro's know how to speed up when necessary.
most pros know how to game the system. I didn't watch all of the live stream coverage, but I'd bet there were bigger gaps out there than between Guan's group and the group ahead somewhere across Augusta today.
Some shotlink data might be nice to corroborate my hunch, but sadly the green jackets haven't permitted its use here.
He's practically guaranteed to make the cut now anyway, after Tiger's epic misfortune on 15.
Now we'll all see the problem the Tour faces with slow play.
Do nothing, people complain.
Penalize someone, people complain.
I watched him via Masters.com on Thursday when he was on 10 and I remember thinking to myself, "Wow, he is really taking his time." So, I'm not surprised. However, I just hope they didn't pick on him because he was an amateur. Would like the same attention shown to the pros too.
Sidenote: I do admire how he took the penalty. He said that he "respected" their decision. He showed good class.
How about these CBS telecast moments?
1) Peter Oosterhuis (where have you been?) was calling Marc Leishman's shot on 17. The only problem was it was Justin Rose on 18.
2) David Feherty fumbling and bumbling about the difference between red/yellow hazards when Tiger hit the flag on 15.
3) What happened on the back of the 14th green when Tiger was preparing to hit his chip?
4) Nick Faldo chocking on his food or was it the pollen?
5) Tiger F-bombs on 18 fairway. They ALMOST closed the mic long enough but Tiger proved them wrong.
An interesting day from a golf and coverage standpoint.
Spot on, D. Feherty's sycophancy with Eldrick s embarrassing.
Does anyone have the over/under of this happening soon on the PGA Tour?
Remember Commissioner Finchem saying he doesn't care about slow play. Is Tim out of touch with the sport, or is this 14 being used (exploited) as a scapegoat?
Ghost of Walter Hagen
They penalize this kid, but not for example, the group that Tiger played behind in the Farmer's which were a hole behind the entire back nine. I love the consistent application of the rules.
Guan was playing from the ladies tees 3 years ago for God sakes!
Perhaps Charlie Beljan had a point, maybe the green jackets shouldn't be inviting kids. Guan's penalty begs the explanation: Why aren't all of last years PGA Tour winners given an invite to the Masters?
It was a European ref; at least he has some balls. PGA America - please take note, this is possible.
Tim in New Zealand (formerly Hoylake)
Chamblee on GC just now was excellent calling out tour players who "cheat the (slow play) rule" by sending their caddies ahead to research the shot while they dawdle down the fairway. Need to get his rant in full posted up on his board.
F. X. Flinn
Personally, I think it's great. Whether or not they did this on purpose, the one they selected is perfect. Young enough to cause controversy among the older generations and just the right age to impact the young minds watching and learning from these turtles. This is a win.
Few random thoughts:
(1) Have no problem with Guan's penalty, but when will Ben Crane be penalized? He might not break 100 with all the slow play he "perpetrates".
(2) I like Feherty -- his show, his commentary, etc. I was surprised at his waxing about Tiger's misfortune at 15. I would think that many in the TV audience and in attendance at Augusta have no issue with Feherty's favorable Tiger treatment -- the "Baba Booey" crowd is a direct reflection of Tiger's success. Yes, he has grown the game immensely from a viewership and sponsorship standpoint, but Tiger has unwillingly brought a lot of "Baba Booey" people into golf. It is the average Tiger fan (not an actual golf/Tiger fan such as DTL who I don't always agree with) that makes me not root for Tiger. (I don't root against Tiger; I respect him but root for other golfers.)
(3) To follow up on the comment made by D., why is this the first time I've heard Peter Oosterhuis all season?
@Dsl, if they "selected" a player then it was not perfect -- in fact, that would make it the opposite of perfect.
Warching him on 16 tee I thought "come on this guy is slow" but after thinking about it it seems harsh to have taken advantage of him. Plenty of guys they cold have penalized over the years.
It's worth reading Rule 6-7 in the book. There's a Note 2 which gives "the committee" the discretion to change the penalty for breaking the Rule . It's made for competitions where there are lots of referees- obviously the professional tours. So there is a precedent for having two Rules for the same situation, one for us and one for pros.
So could the putting method new rule be treated the same way?
I couldn't spell "Random" in my author field, so not surprising I confused your DTF with deferred tax liability.
I commend John Paramore for correctly assessing the slow play penalty today at The Masters. It was the right thing to do. Inexpensive lesson for Guan to learn as he still made the cut. Pace of play is an issue that plagues the game at times. This sends a positive message to golfers everywhere and The Masters made a tough decision that needed to be made. No harm, no foul. Guan is around for the weekend and he handled the whole thing with class. He is the real deal, great young player. No doubt capable of giving golf great moments.
USGA takes on long putter... Long live the manufacturers
Masters penalizes Asian 14 year old ... Long live slow play
I am so glad they penalized a golfer ---finally---but hey, if he had't made the cut, it would have started an international incident, and it might have as it is..., would they just cruise missle a small city, sort of a one ''shot' penalty--or assess a monetary penalty, like closing their checkbook for a month, say.
I am suspicious of this whole deal--- we hear years of ''communism is bad'', and then it's OK, because we need a loan
This is (like) the PGAT saying ANGC is excused from ''the rules'' because they are ''worth too much''- a raw cold admittance of a favorable prejudice to a club that simply *does not play by the rules* set forth by the PGAT. Since remedied, but when *they* were doggone good and ready.
Maybe the only time Tim has told the truth, and heck, it exposed his position , totally, if not more!
While I agree with stroke penalties for the slow ones, this was a total misapplication of the rules-selective, some would say bigoted or racist. I do not hold that position- my beef is not that they zapped the little communist boy, it is that they zapped *an amateur* and not one friggin' dollar was to be spilled.
It was a poor decision, even though it was correctly applied. If ever there was a time for discretion, this was it. In a world view, this will not be taken as it was meant to simply be a golf rule applied,it will be viewed a direct slap in an innocent boy's face -- IMHO.
I could be wrong, and honestly, I hope I am.
DTL, this is digwest wondering if that ''l'' is for ''looooserrrr!'', or maybe Del the Lover- and we all know who you do love! ( George Thorogood: enter stage left!)
It's all hot and really hot out here in the west! '' And when we had no crawdad-- we ate sand.'' ''You ate sand?'' ''We ate sand'' Goin' south,; no time for 'L'''s
It was clear to me from watching his earlier interviews (translator at his side) he does not understand every word....you can tell from his answers that he picks up some of the words...not all
the rules official needs to speak the player's language or have a translator at his side as he explains being put on the clock and the potential penalty...
Does anyone have an opinion on this Tiger drop on 15 controversy? seems to be a problem to me from what I've read
I don't know much about anything, and I'm really trying to understand this decision because on the surface it makes no sense.
Guan goes 73-75, his only bogey on the back nine was the imposed penalty of one stroke on #17. Without the penalty he shoots 73/74. Another player in the group shoots 80/84.
Are we armchair caddys suppose to believe a player shooting 80/84 is playing at a faster pace than his playing competitor who shoots 73/74. Pardon me, 75.
Pace Of Play Police
@ Colin Macgillivray,
How you are reading Rule 6-7 is incorrect. Note 2 to the Rule means that the penalty for breaching a Pace of Play policy is a graduated level of penalties for breaching the Pace of Play policy. It has nothing to do with differentiating the Rule for professional golf. Pace of Play policies are used worldwide for many levels of tournament play for amateur and professional golf...
Yeh, my inferences were quite extended, but the point of the post was that there are different rules already, now, at this point in time, for different folks. Bifurcation some people call it. So the anchoring rule may have room for movement.
In fact, I've now discovered that under Rule 6-7 the time allowed for a shot is different at the Masters vs the PGATour. And that the Masters Rules boss was at the 17th when it happened.
@ Colin Macgillivray,
I saw where you were coming from, but just thought exploring it through R6-7 was incorrect...and your point re the B word is valid. It can exist, and does of course, so perhaps/probably anchoring will be tackled like that.
Where did you read the info on shot times is different at The Masters v PGA Tour? Interesting....
from the golf channel website Randall Mell's article:-
The Masters sets 4 hours and 38 minutes as the expected 18-hole pace for a threesome.
After being informed that a group is out of position, the players are timed. A player gets 40 seconds to play once it is his turn. After a second warning for slow play, a penalty is assessed. The PGA Tour allows 60 seconds for players in certain circumstances. They’re allowed 60 seconds if they are the first to play into a par 3, the first to hit their second shot into a par 4, the first to hit their third shot into a par 5 and the first to putt.
Sounds very similar if it is correct. I don't have the current USPGA hardcard, but most tours (not LET) have a 50 second first to play/40 secs for other shots, and give 1 warning for a first bad time, thereafter 1 penalty stroke for next breach, 2 for a 3rd bad time and DQ for a 4th bad time. Seeing as though the USPGA tour doesn't enforce their policy, it's merely a waste of print. They do something about slow play on the European Tour and LET, and LPGA.
Timing is a subjective thing, but Paramor has 30+ years of knowing when is the correct time to start the stopwatch, and a 10% allowance is given. I didn't see Guan's play, but if he is getting to 50 seconds after a warning, then it's just bad luck.
I don't believe it is right for folks to call out it was Paramor only. There would have been a ton of communication via radio by the senior members of the Rules Committee for the toonamint before the penalty was assessed. They all would have been on board with the ruling. Paramor is world class at his job, and a nice guy to boot. +1 to what Chico said (this thread or another...I forget)
Great response from Guan"s father...."A Rule is a Rule"....Let the decision stand and let,s all learn humility from this 14 year old and father.
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